During Malaysian Prime Minister Najib Razak's recent historic visit to Thailand, he and his Thai counterpart Abhisit Vejjajiva sat down with Nation Multimedia Group's editor-in-chief, Suthichai Yoon, to talk about regional affairs.
The interview will be aired on Channel 9's World Beat show on Tuesday. Here are some excerpts:
SUTHICHAI: What is your main message for Thailand?
NAJIB: Malaysia is a partner. We are not only a neighbour. We want to partner with Thailand in terms of the added challenge of security, economy, development, economic integration, how we face global challenges, world trade … we have to have a common position. That's why it's important for us to understand each other and to decide not only on a common agenda but a common way
forward.
PM Abhisit, don't you find that the Malaysian PM going down South constitutes an interference in our domestic affairs?
ABHISIT: When I first suggested the idea, he very quickly agreed. I think it's important as neighbours that we understand each other and I think nothing beats seeing it first hand … what we are trying to do, what the conditions are. I think Malaysia has been very supportive of the way we work on the southern border provinces and with this first-hand experience, we hope it will make the further contribution that Prime Minister Najib has kindly offered us even more efficient and well-targeted.
The suspicion used to be that people who created trouble fled to the other side and they were well taken care of and they came back whenever they wanted. Is that suspicion gone?
ABHISIT: Well, you said there are suspicions and we have discussed this issue. Malaysia has clearly stated that she has been cooperating with us all along in terms of sharing intelligence, not supporting any kind of violence … I'm very pleased and appreciate Prime Minister Najib's comments made on several occasions that he has been very supportive of what we are trying to do.
NAJIB: We had an incident with the 131 people [who fled to Malaysia from Thailand]. We wanted them to return right away but if we had a hidden agenda, we would keep them in Malaysia. We would not tell you that they are in Malaysia. But we are very transparent. We got an assurance from the Thai government that it was safe to go back.
But what about the militants?
ABHISIT: Those people are going to move around. But we have a good understanding of what has to be done. I believe we will establish a very good standard operating procedure, not just at the policy level but at the operation level.
But they have sympathisers on the other side who would hide them.
NAJIB: Yes, sure. But you can't avoid that. That's one of the reasons why you must solve this dual citizenship problem, because quite a few of these people have a dual citizenship. So when we resolve this problem once and for all, it would be a lot easier for us to track and monitor the movement of people.
What is the estimated number?
NAJIB: I heard several estimates, probably 20,000 to 30,000 … but I am willing to be corrected.
ABHISIT: A lot of people go back and forth because they are seeking economic opportunities.
You mentioned autonomy. Are you on the same page?
NAJIB: I don't want to go into this debate. Autonomy is quite sensitive to some people in Thailand. We are comfortable with the terminology, but what is more appropriate in the Thai context would be decentralisation. It's a form of autonomy - decentralisation. If the Thais are more comfortable with decentralisation, so be it. This is a Thai domestic issue and we must respect that. There cannot be a template. What happened in southern Philippines may not be the same modality as here because the dynamics are different. But we will be cooperating with the Thai government based on how they want to play it, how they want to move forward.
ABHISIT: The ultimate aim is that you respond to people's needs. The people of the southern provinces have specific needs tailored to their way of life, their beliefs, their culture and that's what we aim to do. They have their own local authorities … locally elected. They have the Southern Border Provinces Administrative Centre, which is going to be upgraded with a new legislation. They also have specific needs ... economic zone, the yawi language, application of Islamic laws. These are the kind of things that make up what it takes to respond to local needs. And we are open to ideas within the Constitution.
You [Najib] have been involved in facilitating [peace] talks in Aceh and in the southern Philippines. You have gone through all this before. If Thailand comes to you and asks what is a good model, then you should be able to elaborate.
NAJIB: We can tell the Thai government of a different model that we have employed in other parts. But there is no template because the internal dynamics will be different in every country.
Are you willing to negotiate these models?
ABHISIT: Anything within the Constitution is fine. I think the Constitution already has very good provisions to make sure that everybody, wherever they live, whatever their culture, beliefs, can have their needs responded to.
Separate state?
ABHISIT: I don't think that constitutes autonomy or decentralisation.
NAJIB: It has to be within the context of the Thai Constitution. There shouldn't be any talks about secession or a separate state. That's totally out of the question. We would not support it at all. It will lead to the breaking up of a country. That is not a good thing for Thailand or for the region.
BHISIT: I sincerely don't believe it's good for the people.
The time will come when you sit down with people on the other side to consider the proposals they put forward. How far are you willing to sit down and talk? Do you see yourself as an honest broker, Malaysia?
NAJIB: No. Unless, of course it is deemed necessary for us … we consider it a domestic Thai issue. The Thai government should be able to gauge, as Prime Minister Abhisit said, the needs and aspirations of the people and respond accordingly. As I said, we will play according to how the Thai government feels it should be done.
Would you ask Malaysia to facilitate the process?
ABHISIT: What we have already discussed is the issue of communication. And again let me emphasise that the most important dialogue or talks must be with local people. And there are things the Thai government wants to do. It is a change or a shift from past practices. But it might not be filtering down as well as it should, perhaps. And maybe there is a perception of that not happening among our friends, neighbours, partners and also the international community, governments or NGOs. I think that, as partners, we would like that Malaysia helps facilitate communication with all who are concerned about what it is the government is doing.
The militants are local people, the people who throw bombs. Are you going to talk to them?
ABHISIT: Why should their voices be louder than the ones who are not practising violence. After all we have to cater to the needs of the ordinary people. And I'm sure the ordinary local people want peace, they don't want violence and if they have specific needs then we should listen to them.
And why should people who practise violence object to that? They said they have reasons to be violent and they said violence would stop if the Thai government gives them justice, gives them fair treatment.
ABHISIT: Well I say I'm here to give them justice even if they do not practise violence. In fact, it would be easier for us to make sure that there is justice and development if there is no violence.
Prime Minister Najib, there are the old guards abroad - the Pulo [Patani United Liberation Organisation], the BRN [Barasi Revolusi Nasional] - and then there is the younger generation of militants, more idealistic, ready to sacrifice their lives for an independent, separate state or a new identity. Can Malaysia bridge the gap between the old guards and the new militants in southern Thailand?
NAJIB: I think first of all what we need to do is manage the polarity by concentrating on the vast majority. I think the extremists can only survive if they have the support of the people. If you deprive them of the oxygen, meaning the people are not with them, then it's easier for us to handle the extremists. We concentrate on the vast majority of the people and the vast majority of the people want peace, they want to live in harmony with the Buddhists, they want economic development, they want a better future. They want some of the aspiration, with respect to language, with respect to Islamic education, with respect to some of the Sharia law, and so forth. If you can provide that, the vast majority will be with you.
So should we just ignore the Pulo, the BRN?
ABHISIT: I say my job is to respond to the needs of the people. We have been engaged with them. The economic plans we are putting in is not just about economy. It's about engaging people and getting them to participate in this sort of bottom-up process. Everybody who is in the provinces can participate. Nobody is ignored.
But the local people are complaining about incidents. One particular incident was the June massacre in a mosque in Narathiwat where 10 to 11 people were killed and they said justice is not being done.
ABHISIT: Well we take it very seriously and if you recall, just after the incident, the government did not deflect this problem and blame it as the work of separatists.
We identified and issued arrest warrants … and I believe the local people agree that they were very likely the people who caused the incident. And we are trying now to make sure that we can arrest the persons. So clearly there has been a change. It's not something that we've swept under the carpet. This is not something we can be accused of - trying to distract and some how distort the facts. We are facing up to the facts and we are trying our best to make sure the law can be enforced.
The pictures of the suspects have been on the Internet?
ABHISIT: Well, we have tried to make sure that we get those persons.
The peace process. How do you envision it happening?
ABHISIT: If we can push ahead on the agenda of development and justice, and steadily remove the special power that we have. And certainly, while we are employing the special law, we will have already improved the system whereby we can deal with complaints about possible abuse. By continuing to build trust and confidence, I think a more meaningful dialogue with the people in general would allow us to find a solution that would be long lasting.
Meanwhile violence continues. You have been in office for a year and it has not let up.
ABHISIT: I don't think you could have expected the violence to let up so quickly. The economic plans have been implemented for only two to three months. We need more time to prove our sincerity, our determination. This policy requires time, patience and the people will keep watching to test the policy. We are very well aware of that. I don't think its fair to judge. Certainly the number of incidents have reduced, but not at a pace we are satisfied with. We have to continue to move ahead.
How do you [Najib] see the peace process?
NAJIB: Depends how you define it. This is a journey and it could be a roller coaster, there will be ups and downs. But that doesn't mean that if there is a spate of violence, your policy is unsuccessful. You have to stay the course. You have to gain the trust and confidence, and of course, this terminology of winning hearts and minds of the people. It's a long process. It takes time. It took us 40 years to defeat the communists. But we stayed the course. We hope the problem in the South will not take as long.
People claiming to be representatives of the Pulo, the BRN, are going through some Malaysian officials and holding secret talks with Thai officials. In fact, Prime Minister Surayud [Chulanont], before he left office in 2007, met some Pulo representatives in Bahrain through the good offices of Malaysia. Prime minister Surayud thanked prime minister Abdullah Badawi at the time. Will you be willing to do that for Prime Minister Abhisit? Somewhere, somehow, secret talks that I wouldn't know about?
NAJIB: If there are going to be secret talks, I would not be talking to you about it.
ABHISIT: There has always been a question about which groups are behind this. Unlike many cases in the world where there is violence and someone claims responsibility… we don't have that here. So you are talking about something completely different.
You are not interested in checking if these groups are for real? You are not interested at all?
ABHISIT: That's the direct responsibility of the intelligence. And they do that. And of course, I have to get them to report to me.
Some of the military, including the Army chief [General Anupong Paochinda], their stance is that you don't talk to the enemy. Are you being influenced by the military mentality of "no, we are not going to sit down with..."?
ABHISIT: This is a domestic problem. It has a number of dimensions, political ones, yes. But there are also legal implications. You can't oversimplify the issue. All I can say is that when this government came in, we ran on a platform where we wanted to put the people first and we say we wanted to respond to the locals' needs and we are working on that.
Do you [Najib] think he [Abhisit] is being stubborn not ruling out any possibility of not talking to anyone at all?
NAJIB: I don't want to make any judgement because as I said, it's not fair. He has to solve the problem; he has to live with the problem. It is a Thai problem. But as long as there is a positive movement, the situation will be getting better and better, over time, of course. It cannot be overnight. We believe there is no silver bullet. I think one has to stay the course and believe in what one is doing. What you need to do is to win the trust of people. As you pursue policies like lifting the socio-economic status, you fulfil their aspirations to develop their own identity, you respect their needs in terms of faith, their culture and language and allow them to participate in some of the decision-making process, then I think over a period of time people will realise that this is the best thing for them. It's not violence, it's not killing, it's not exploding bombs but it is pursuing something for the betterment of their community, for the best interest of the Muslims in the South.
PM Abhisit, what do you think the militants are trying to achieve?
ABHISIT: It's not easy to put yourself in the mind of the extremists. But we recognise the combinations. There are people naturally who have extremist beliefs and that's not confined to southern Thailand. Secondly, there may be some information or ideological training that gets into that mode. But the third component is that there mustn't be incidents, injustice and abuses that feed into the first two factors. We are anxious to remove this third factor. I don't pretend that we have eliminated all the conditions. We still receive complaints about abuses and I will address those issues.
What's the estimated figure of the militants? I heard 10,000 and commanders said they have identified 9,000 of them.
ABHISIT: There's quite a range of estimates. It's not a small number. But it doesn't mean it cannot be managed or reduced.
Is that a serious number?
NAJIB: If you have militants in that sort of range then, of course, it is a serious threat for any nation, not just Thailand.
Do you think the local problem will not expand into a regional insurgent movement?
ABHISIT: We are well aware that there may be outside groups looking for an opening.
ABHISIT: JI or Jihadist movements?
NAJIB: So far I think it's still localised. There is not really a connection with any form of terrorist movements but we cannot allow the problem to go on unattended.
Because it could come to that point?
ABHISIT: Anything could happen. We don't want to leave that possibility. We want to close that door once and for all.
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